Appositive-Vantage Point

Question

1.Mercy Otis Warren was continually at or near the center of political events from 1765 to 1789,

and this vantage point, combined with her talent for writing, made her one of the most valuable historians of the ear.

2.Mercy Otis Warren was continually at or near the center of political events from 1765 to 1789,

and vantage point, when combined with her talent for writing, that made her one of the most valuable historians of the ear.

My Tutor's comment

The sentence 1 &2 sounds as if the vantage point was critical to make her a most valuable historian, whereas her talent for writing is subordinate to it since combined with her talent for writing is non-essential modifier.... second sentence when combined....imply that the action(combine) is done by vantage point.......

Question

1.If I remove comma or make modifier as essential, will the emphasis be same for her talent for writing and this vantage point?

2. If I remove when from second sentence. Will sentence be correct?

3. I doubt if above comments are all right... Can someone confirm?

Thank you

Clive · Accepted Answer

Hi,

1.Mercy Otis Warren was continually at or near the center of political events from 1765 to 1789,

and this vantage point, combined with her talent for writing, made her one of the most valuable historians of the ear. The idea is that they are both important. The vantage point is a bit more important, as it is mentioned first and more directly.

2.Mercy Otis Warren was continually at or near the center of political events from 1765 to 1789,

and this vantage point, when combined with her talent for writing, that (<<< omit 'that') made her one of the most valuable historians of the ear. The vantage point is still the more important. But to my ear, the 'when' adds a littlle bit more imortance than before to the talent. It makes the combining sound a little bit more inevitable.

My Tutor's comment

The sentence 1 &2 sounds as if the vantage point was critical to make her a most valuable historian, whereas her talent for writing is subordinate to it since combined with her talent for writing is non-essential modifier....

second sentence when combined..imply that the action(combine) is done by vantage point.. No, this comment is completely incorrect. There is no such implication. A fuller version is

eg and this vantage point, when this vantage point is combined with her talent for writing,

Question

1.If I remove comma or make modifier as essential, will the emphasis be same for her talent for writing and this vantage point? The commas are really just here to make the sentence more readable and easier to understand. They help the reader to find the different parts of the sentence. They do not really effect the meaning that the reader draws.

2. If I remove when from second sentence. Will sentence be correct? Yes, but it needs my corrections in red.

3. I doubt if above comments are all right... Can someone confirm?

It's often useful to consider a simpler and more concrete example in cases like this.

Here's one.

Context: a crowd of people are standing, watching a tennis match. Tom is standing in in the middle of the crowd.

He is standing on a chair. He is a tall man.

Sentence: This vantage point, combined with his height, gave Tom the best view.

Clive

Dave_anon · Answer

Dear Pokh

This is a simple idea and I may be wrong..

I think your teacher is saying that many thousands of people had a vantage point on the late-eighteenth century in America, but Ms Warren was one of the few people who could describe the events with a talent for writing

Therefore you should put the talent first and the vantage point second..

- Her talent for writing, when momentous events were taking place in America, made her one of the most influential historians of the era

Regards, Dave

Pokh · Answer

CliveHi,
The commas are really just here to make the sentence more readable and easier to understand. They help the reader to find the different parts of the sentence. They do not really effect the meaning that the reader draws.

It's often useful to consider a simpler and more concrete example in cases like this.
Here's one.
Context: a crowd of people are standing, watching a tennis match. Tom is standing in in the middle of the crowd.
He is standing on a chair. He is a tall man.
Sentence: This vantage point, combined with his height, gave Tom the best view.

Clive

Thank you very much Clive,

My problem is , when I see comma I take it like non restrictive clause. How to know the comma is added for clarity? For example

This vantage point, combined with his height, gave Tom the best view.

Here combined with his height is within comma , so its non-restrictive -meaning it does not change the meaning of the sentence even if removed. So if you remove it you get

This vantage point, ~~combined with his height~~, gave Tom the best view.

Thus the sentence means only the vantage point gave tom the best view.

In second sentence , If I turn entire a vantage... to an summative modifier What impact will it have on the meaning of sentence?

Mercy Otis Warren was continually at or near the center of political events from 1765 to 1789,

a vantage point, when combined with her talent for writing, made her one of the most valuable historians of the ear.

Clive · Answer

Hi,

This vantage point, combined with his height, gave Tom the best view.

My feeling is that the word 'combined' so strongly ties the two phrases together that the presence or absence of the commas makes no real difference to the meaning.

Do you really think the writer meant something like this?

This vantage point gave Tom the best view. Oh, by the way, the vantage point happened to be combined with his height.

This seems to me highly unlikely, if not ludicrous.

What I''m trying to say is that you always have to try to consider both grammar and reasonable meaning. Generally speaking, it's not wise to separate the two.

eg The policeman ran over Tom with his police car.

Who do you think the police car belonged to? Grammatically, to Tom. But in terms of reasonable meaning, to the policeman.

Clive

Pokh · Answer

CliveHi,

This vantage point, combined with his height, gave Tom the best view.
My feeling is that the word 'combined' so strongly ties the two phrases together that the presence or absence of the commas makes no real difference to the meaning.

Do you really think the writer meant something like this?
This vantage point gave Tom the best view. Oh, by the way, the vantage point happened to be combined with his height.
This seems to me highly unlikely, if not ludicrous.

What I''m trying to say is that you always have to try to consider both grammar and reasonable meaning. Generally speaking, it's not wise to separate the two.
eg The policeman ran over Tom with his police car.
Who do you think the police car belonged to? Grammatically, to Tom. But in terms of reasonable meaning, to the policeman.

Clive

thanks clive got it now.Usually, I go after grammar coz logical meaning most of the time goes way over my head being non-native speaker..

can you clarify my second question ..using appositive vs independent clause.. any difference.

Mercy Otis Warren was continually at or near the center of political events from 1765 to 1789,

a vantage point, when combined with her talent for writing, made her one of the most valuable historians of the ear.

Thank you

Clive · Answer

Hi,

can you clarify my second question ..using appositive vs independent clause.. any difference.

Mercy Otis Warren was continually at or near the center of political events from 1765 to 1789,

a vantage point, when combined with her talent for writing, made her one of the most valuable historians of the ear.

I thought I already explained that this is incorrect grammar. Maybe I didn't. I forget.

You need to say it this way.

Mercy Otis Warren was continually at or near the center of political events from 1765 to 1789,

a vantage point which, when combined with her talent for writing, made her one of the most valuable historians of the ear.

All of the underlined part simply describes 'a vantage point'.

Clive

Pokh · Answer

CliveHi,

I thought I already explained that this is incorrect grammar. Maybe I didn't. I forget.

You need to say it this way.

Mercy Otis Warren was continually at or near the center of political events from 1765 to 1789,
a vantage point which, when combined with her talent for writing, made her one of the most valuable historians of the ear.

All of the underlined part simply describes 'a vantage point'.

Clive

Clive, Forgive me for my ignorance....Again got confused with the position of WHICH in your modified sentence.

1.Are you putting which before when combined ... to make when combined ... an adverbial phrase to modify made?

2. If I move which forward as a vantage point, when combined with her talent for writing,which made .Will when combined .. be adjectival phrase modifying a vantage point?

Thank you

Clive · Answer

Hi,

You need to say it this way.

Mercy Otis Warren was continually at or near the center of political events from 1765 to 1789,

a vantage point which, when combined with her talent for writing, made her one of the most valuable historians of the era.

All of the underlined part simply describes 'a vantage point'.

Forgive me for my ignorance..Again got confused with the position of WHICH in your modified sentence.

1.Are you putting which before when combined ... to make when combined ... an adverbial phrase to modify made?

I suppose so. Really, I'm just doing it to make it sound right. Sometimes I find it hard to decide if something is adjectival or adverbial.

2. If I move which forward as a vantage point, when combined with her talent for writing,which made .Will when combined .. be adjectival phrase modifying a vantage point? It would seem to be so. But doing that sounds very awkward and just doesn't feel correct to me.

Clive

Appositive-Vantage Point

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