Answer these please

Question

Hi,1. Do you need the comma anywhere in this sentence?We will have our next meeting on September 19th starting from/at 3 P.M.2. Is this sentence correct? I am not sure about having the word "etc." in the middle of the sentence. He  has some suggestions, advice, etc., for you.

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

1-- I'd put a comma after 19th, and use at.
2-- The etc. is OK there, but no comma is required after etc. Generally, a period looks odd in the middle of a sentence, and I would opt for 'and so forth' or 'and the like' instead.

Tam Sadek · Answer

Mister Micawber2-- The etc. is OK there, but no comma is required after etc. Generally, a period looks odd in the middle of a sentence, and I would opt for 'and so forth' or 'and the like' instead.

Although I agree that the use of 'etc.' followed by a full stop (period) may look odd, I don't think that the suggested alternatives are much use here as they would completely change the register if this is in a written form to a mishmash of formal and informal language. Just look at the results:

'He has some suggestions, advice and so forth for you' or even 'He has some suggestions, advice and the like for you' both look bizarre in a written form.

It would probably be better to actually think about exactly what you are saying and state it as in:

'He has some suggestions, advice and ideas for you.'

Hope this helps

Mister Micawber · Answer

He has some suggestions, advice, and so forth for you or He has some suggestions, advice, and the like for you

Both sentences are fine; neither is 'bizarre' or a 'mishmash'; the phrases I have suggested are in general use in a range of registers:

1    ned  by factor prices, technology, http://www.edict.com.hk/scripts/cgi-bin/ShowContext.exe/Brown2.txt/4178258/12. As we have  noted, however, we are
2    just what changes  she wanted made http://www.edict.com.hk/scripts/cgi-bin/ShowContext.exe/Brown2.txt/5176813/12".     Garth hesitated. "Mr& Hohlbei
3    rs, favorite if  illiterate aunts, http://www.edict.com.hk/scripts/cgi-bin/ShowContext.exe/Brown2.txt/2858675/12. Scientists often turn  out to be i
4    they were fed, clothed,  doctored, http://www.edict.com.hk/scripts/cgi-bin/ShowContext.exe/Brown2.txt/2546499/12; they were the beneficiaries  of re

1    y wool coverlet, some khaki pants, http://www.edict.com.hk/scripts/cgi-bin/ShowContext.exe/Brown2.txt/6118697/12,  and to ransack the innumerable bo
2    r networks pertaining to logistics http://www.edict.com.hk/scripts/cgi-bin/ShowContext.exe/Brown2.txt/2584966/12  are interlaced.     Not discussed 
3    ies  and dress shops, candy stores http://www.edict.com.hk/scripts/cgi-bin/ShowContext.exe/Brown2.txt/4415106/12. But whenever  a major purchase was
4    uppose by the Style of old Friend, http://www.edict.com.hk/scripts/cgi-bin/ShowContext.exe/Brown2.txt/2807643/12,  it must be some Body there of his
5    meant sorting out press  clippings http://www.edict.com.hk/scripts/cgi-bin/ShowContext.exe/Brown2.txt/4704554/12.     Jane sat receptive and interes
6    on membership, union jurisdiction, http://www.edict.com.hk/scripts/cgi-bin/ShowContext.exe/Brown2.txt/4246193/12?  Or should it have a broader conno
7    ons supported by flimsy evidence,  http://www.edict.com.hk/scripts/cgi-bin/ShowContext.exe/Brown2.txt/4446393/12. Such books are easy prey for criti
8    s education, housing, medical aid, http://www.edict.com.hk/scripts/cgi-bin/ShowContext.exe/Brown2.txt/4165032/12.  There are serious dangers involve
9     sawing and chopping, canoe races, http://www.edict.com.hk/scripts/cgi-bin/ShowContext.exe/Brown2.txt/2109715/12.     There is much to be said for a

Tam Sadek · Answer

Point taken. I didn't mean to imply that they were not possible as your extract from the corpus from what appear to be literature, academic, and news registers clearly shows.

However, it appeared to me from the context of the poster's question that we were assuming a 'business' register and as such aiming for succinctness and appropriacy within this context.

And in a business context I don't believe that 'and so forth' and 'and the like' would be very well received in a written form when collocated after 'He has advice, suggestions 'and so forth' for you.

So being context-specific, I don't think that it would be appropriate here.

We should be corpus-informed, but not necessarily corpus-led. Corpora do provide a wealth of useful information for us, but as yet I've not seen any that include the business register. They tend to be broken down into the fiction, news, academic and spoken registers (as the examples in your corpus extracts confirm); which although very useful for understanding usage across these registers, does not necessarily reflect appropriate usage in the business (English) register.

As I said, I assumed a specific business context and therefore register, and not a 'generality' in the question.

Apologies if my assumption was wrong...

Tam

Mister Micawber · Answer

Even assuming that this is a piece of careful business writing, there is no reasonable argument for excluding and so forth, and so on, and the like as available synonyms for etc. They are virtually register-free and widely used. Your argument is forced and certainly overly prescriptive; can you yourself cite any online source that indicates they are in any way too casual or inappropriate here? On the contrary, it is etc which is limited in use:

'Et cetera', a Latin phrase, appears in English writing most frequently in its abbreviated form, 'etc.' This phrase is used frequently in technical and business writing, somewhat less frequently in general informal writing, and sometimes in literary or formal writing. Expressions such as 'and so forth' and 'and so on' are useful substitutes.

Tam Sadek · Answer

Mister MicawberOn the contrary, it is etc which is limited in use:

'Et cetera', a Latin phrase, appears in English writing most frequently in its abbreviated form, 'etc.' This phrase is used frequently in technical and business writing, somewhat less frequently in general informal writing, and sometimes in literary or formal writing. Expressions such as 'and so forth' and 'and so on' are useful substitutes.

Whenever we answer a question about English we have to decide upon a context as our starting point. I assumed, because of his first example including the term 'meeting', that he had already chosen a business context. Now we are looking for appropriacy.

As for the use of 'and so forth' and 'and so on' being less appropriate in a business context; you kind of answered it yourself, using a somewhat prescriptive quotation. For if 'etc.' is used frequently in business writing' then, ipso facto, the alternatives you suggested presumably are not.

As for being overly prescriptive, when it comes to a very restricted formulaic register such as business (English), which let's be honest is the main reason people learn English; then I believe there is a very strong need for a global agreement on usage as international communication between non-native english-speaking business people must not be made more ambiguous, or lead to misinterpretation, due to one of them suddenly deciding to turn a business communication into a would be Booker Prize nominee.

The choice here is one of style and appropriacy rather than possibilty. In business; less, often, is more. Sad, but true.

Then again the essence of a forum such as this denotes a form of prescriptiveness in itself anyway, doesn't it?

Milky · Answer

<2-- The etc. is OK there, but no comma is required after etc. Generally, a period looks odd in the middle of a sentence, and I would opt for 'and so forth' or 'and the like' instead.>

What would you do in a case such as this?

We will discuss view of the conservatives vs. that of the radicals.

Milky · Answer

#1 is fine. In #2, I'd keep the period after "etc.".

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