American Surname Pronunciation Guide - LOC

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This pagehttp://www.loc.gov/nls/other/sayhow.htmldoes not seem to have been mentioned in the NG (according to Mr Google, at least).A valuable tool, since, in many cases, the pronunciation is not that which an educated Briton (at least) would use in pronouncing the name of a citizen of the appropriate Old Country.For instance, if told Katrina vanden Heuvel was a Dutch woman, I would (rightly or wrongly) pronounce her surname 'hoyv'l' (I don't speak Dutch!).But, according to the LOC page, the surname of the 'Nation''s Katrina vanden Heuvel is pronounced'VAN-dðn-hyoov-ðl'A pronunciation that I suspect a monolingual Dutchman would not easily recognise.Unfortunately, the LOC list is far from exhaustive when it comes to difficult surname pronunciations.Reading about the Congressional travails of JFK, I come across the names of a couple of House members, Freylinghuisen (NJ) and Quié (LA).Again, I'd be fairly confident pronouncing those names as belonging to Europeans, as'fray-ling-hoys'n' and'kee-ay'But not those names belonging to Americans.There is also Brademas (IN) - I wouldn't like to guess the origin of the guy's name, let alone how it is pronounced as such!

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[nq:2]Again, I'd be fairly confident pronouncing those names as belongingto Europeans, as 'fray-ling-hoys'n' and 'kee-ay'[/nq]
My understanding of Dutch (such as it is) indicates that the first one would be pronounced:
fray-ling-high-s'n
... any true Dutch speakers want to weigh in?
M

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...
} But not those names belonging to Americans.
}
} There is also Brademas (IN) - I wouldn't like to guess the origin of } the guy's name, let alone how it is pronounced as such!

And leave us not forget the next President of the United States, Steny Hoyer. (See the preview on The West Wing on Wednesday coming up.)

R. J. Valentine

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[nq:1]This page http://www.loc.gov/nls/other/sayhow.html does not seem to have been mentioned in the NG (according to Mr Google, at least). A ... - I wouldn't like to guess the origin of the guy's name, let alone how it is pronounced as such![/nq]
None of the Spiras listed match the pronunciation used by my husband's family, which is consistent among members in the US, UK and Israel.

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

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[nq:1]My understanding of Dutch (such as it is) indicates that the first one would be pronounced: fray-ling-high-s'n ... any true Dutch speakers want to weigh in?[/nq]
I grok Dutch speaking, even though I may not perform it well. The Dutch diphthongs ui and eu are all but unpronounceable by non-natives. For ui think about the word house spoken by a Canadian. Close, but not quite the full cigar. For eu, well, might as well give up. Maybe Donna can help with some ASCII IPA, but it's beyond me. Think 'oh' with your lips screwed up big time and you might be in the same universe somewhere.

Mike Connally
Had to take action 'against spam'. Remove those words to reply.

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[nq:1]This page http://www.loc.gov/nls/other/sayhow.html does not seem to have been mentioned in the NG (according to Mr Google, at least). A ... Katrina vanden Heuvel was a Dutch woman, I would (rightly or wrongly) pronounce her surname 'hoyv'l' (I don't speak Dutch!).[/nq]
There is no good equivalent in English for the Dutch 'eu' sound.
[nq:1]But, according to the LOC page, the surname of the 'Nation''s Katrina vanden Heuvel is pronounced 'VAN-dâ?ºn-hyoov-â?ºl' A pronunciation that I suspect a monolingual Dutchman would not easily recognise.[/nq]
Where did you find one?
[nq:1]Unfortunately, the LOC list is far from exhaustive when it comes to difficult surname pronunciations. Reading about the Congressional travails ... (NJ) and QuiÃ© (LA). Again, I'd be fairly confident pronouncing those names as belonging to Europeans, as 'fray-ling-hoys'n' and 'kee-ay'[/nq]
There is no good equivalent in English for the Dutch 'ui' sound. Native speakers of English who have learned to speak Dutch very well often betray their origin by an English-like 'ui' sound. 'Freylinghuisen' might also be Danish in origin though.

Jan

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[nq:2]This page http://www.loc.gov/nls/other/sayhow.html does not seem to have been mentioned ... or wrongly) pronounce her surname 'hoyv'l' (I don't speak Dutch!).[/nq]
[nq:1]There is no good equivalent in English for the Dutch 'eu' sound.[/nq]
I agree the only way to get it is to hear it, like on a sound file. If we ever located some Dutch vowels in one of the sound archives somewhere, I don't remember it now.
[nq:2]But, according to the LOC page, the surname of the ... that I suspect a monolingual Dutchman would not easily recognise.[/nq]
[nq:1]Where did you find one?[/nq]
I think halcombe is thinking of the German "eu" which is basically "oy" (as in "Deutsch") and does not realize the Dutch "eu" is different. (And the French "eu" is different yet again.)
"Neus" is not like "noise" nor is it like "nyooz". But I think it does resemble the way "nose" is said by some RP speakers. The one that sounds like "neh-ooz" to Americans.
[nq:2]Reading about the Congressional travails of JFK, I come across ... those names as belonging to Europeans, as 'fray-ling-hoys'n' and 'kee-ay'[/nq]
[nq:1]There is no good equivalent in English for the Dutch 'ui' sound.[/nq]
True, but a tight-lipped "ow" works well enough for me. This is somehow easier than some of the other vowel combinations.
[nq:1]Native speakers of English who have learned to speak Dutch very well often betray their origin by an English-like 'ui' sound. 'Freylinghuisen' might also be Danish in origin though.[/nq]
Beyond all the particulars, I have to defend the right of people in one country to pronounce their own names in ways that differ from that of their ancestors or even worse, from the way their names would be said by the modern residents of their ancient homeland, even though though it may have differed two or three or four centuries before, at the time of immigration.
This came up in the discussion of Schiavo ("Shy-vo") last week. I meant to point out that Switzerland is another country, besides just the US, where you can see a mingling of surnames, often spelled or pronounced by a different set of rules than the language of origin. Pronunciation changes are just a thing that happens, and although it's interesting and surprising, i don't think it should be quite the source of indignation that it sometimes seems to be.

Best Donna Richoux

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[nq:1]This page http://www.loc.gov/nls/other/sayhow.html[/nq]
The Boston Red Sox have two players with odd non intuitive name pronunciations. First baseman Kevin Millar and third baseman Bill Mueller. Millar calls himself Mi lar' with a short i, Mueller calls himself Miller, like the term for a mill operator. Names have little to do with the rules of pronunciation.

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Mike Connally wrote in a message to mark raymond:
MC> From: Mike Connally (Email Removed)
[nq:1]My understanding of Dutch (such as it is) indicates that the first one would be pronounced: fray-ling-high-s'n ... any true Dutch speakers want to weigh in?[/nq]
MC> I grok Dutch speaking, even though I may not perform it well. The MC> Dutch diphthongs ui and eu are all but unpronounceable by MC> non-natives. For ui think about the word house spoken by a MC> Canadian. Close, but not quite the full cigar. For eu, well, might MC> as well give up. Maybe Donna can help with some ASCII IPA, but MC> it's beyond me. Think 'oh' with your lips screwed up big time and MC> you might be in the same universe somewhere.
Do Canadians all pronounce "house" the same way from Vancouver to Halifax?

The Dutch pronunciation of "huis" is sufficiently close to the English "house" to make it easy to describe to English-speaking people. The Afrikaans pronunciation is impossible er-ee (non-rhotic), perhaps.

Perhaps that's why English speakers pronounce Uitenhage as "You ten hague" (AmE=hag).

Steve Hayes
WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail: (Email Removed) - If it doesn't work, see webpage.

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(Email Removed) turpitued:
[nq:1]The Dutch pronunciation of "huis" is sufficiently close to the English "house" to make it easy to describe to English-speaking people. The Afrikaans pronunciation is impossible er-ee (non-rhotic), perhaps.[/nq]
Nah, Dutch "huis" is easy. Say it in Afrikaans, and then shorten the "i" so that it's almost inaudible.
Alternatively, suck on a lemon before saying "er".

Peter Moylan peter at ee dot newcastle dot edu dot au http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (OS/2 and eCS information and software)

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Agreed, German 'eu' is very different, but French 'eu' as in 'beurre' is rather close.
[nq:1]"Neus" is not like "noise" nor is it like "nyooz". But I think it does resemble the way "nose" is said by some RP speakers. The one that sounds like "neh-ooz" to Americans.[/nq]
What is hard for English natives learning Dutch
is that vowels should be clear,
without and slurring by dropping away into oy-like endings. These are perceived as accent, dialect, or lower class, compared to ABN Dutch.
[nq:2]There is no good equivalent in English for the Dutch 'ui' sound.[/nq]
[nq:1]True, but a tight-lipped "ow" works well enough for me. This is somehow easier than some of the other vowel combinations.[/nq]
It will be an obviously American accent, probably, as in 'spruitjes' -> 'sprowtjes'.
The 'ui' should not fade into a w sound.
[nq:2]Native speakers of English who have learned to speak Dutch ... 'ui' sound. 'Freylinghuisen' might also be Danish in origin though.[/nq]
[nq:1]Beyond all the particulars, I have to defend the right of people in one country to pronounce their own names ... homeland, even though though it may have differed two or three or four centuries before, at the time of immigration.[/nq]
Most Dutch are descendants of immigrants of centuries ago. Americans tend to think that America is unique in this, but 17th century Amsterdam was a melting pot
somewhat like 20th century New York.
[nq:1]This came up in the discussion of Schiavo ("Shy-vo") last week. I meant to point out that Switzerland is another ... interesting and surprising, i don't think it should be quite the source of indignation that it sometimes seems to be.[/nq]
The Dutch try in general to use the original pronunciation, even for Americanized Dutch names like Vanderbilt. So were 'Freylinghuisen' to make the news,
a Dutch newsreader wil probably try to guess
at what Americans might have made of it,
rather than pronounce it in some Dutch-like way.
Best,
Jan

American Surname Pronunciation Guide - LOC

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