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Henry74 Posted 14 years ago
Grammar
Again on backshifting
Hi everyone,
I'm having trouble deciding which way to go when I have multiple subordinates. Can you please help me?
Suppose you start with: I know that there are people who like to take advantage of others.
You then obtain three different sentences:
a) I knew that there are people who like to take advantage of others.
b) I knew that there were people who like to take advantage of others.
c) I knew that there were people who liked to take advantage of others.
about which I have a few questions:
1) Is a) grammatical? If so, does this depend on the objectivity of what I am stating? For example, is I knew that the sky is blue grammatical? If so, is there a class of statements that specifically falls under the category of 'objectivity', or can I use the present tense to precisely make the point that I consider what I am stating as true in general?
For example, suppose I just saw my neighbors take advantage of a situation in a way that I consider mean behavior towards us and other neighbors. Can I say,
I knew that there are people who like to take advantage of others, I just didn't expect our neighbors to be among them,
where I'm using the present tense to signify that there are obviously people in world who like to do that?
2) If I am allowed to use the Present that way, what then would c) come to mean? Could I still use it to state something about the present? Would its use restrict the validity of my statement from 'people in general' to, say, 'people in my neighborhood'?
3) Is b) grammatical?
4) Would it make a difference, in terms of applicability to my 'neighbors' scenario, if my template was She says that there are people who like to take advantage of others, and the three sentences were constructed in similar fashion to the ones above?
5) Would it make a difference if I replaced I knew that... with I have always known that...
I hope I didn't get tangled up in my own convoluted reasoning.
Thank you for your help!
H.
I'm having trouble deciding which way to go when I have multiple subordinates. Can you please help me?
Suppose you start with: I know that there are people who like to take advantage of others.
You then obtain three different sentences:
a) I knew that there are people who like to take advantage of others.
b) I knew that there were people who like to take advantage of others.
c) I knew that there were people who liked to take advantage of others.
about which I have a few questions:
1) Is a) grammatical? If so, does this depend on the objectivity of what I am stating? For example, is I knew that the sky is blue grammatical? If so, is there a class of statements that specifically falls under the category of 'objectivity', or can I use the present tense to precisely make the point that I consider what I am stating as true in general?
For example, suppose I just saw my neighbors take advantage of a situation in a way that I consider mean behavior towards us and other neighbors. Can I say,
I knew that there are people who like to take advantage of others, I just didn't expect our neighbors to be among them,
where I'm using the present tense to signify that there are obviously people in world who like to do that?
2) If I am allowed to use the Present that way, what then would c) come to mean? Could I still use it to state something about the present? Would its use restrict the validity of my statement from 'people in general' to, say, 'people in my neighborhood'?
3) Is b) grammatical?
4) Would it make a difference, in terms of applicability to my 'neighbors' scenario, if my template was She says that there are people who like to take advantage of others, and the three sentences were constructed in similar fashion to the ones above?
5) Would it make a difference if I replaced I knew that... with I have always known that...
I hope I didn't get tangled up in my own convoluted reasoning.
Thank you for your help!
H.
Top answer
a) This is okay. This would be used for example in the following: I was new in the city, just arriving there from the country. And moreover, I was young and inexperienced.
- a) This is okay.
- This would be used for example in the following: I was new in the city, just arriving there from the country.
- And moreover, I was young and inexperienced.
- I wanted to be outgoing and friendly, but I knew from hard experience that there are people in every place who like to take advantage of others.
- b) This is okay.
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9 Answers
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a) This is okay. This would be used for example in the following:
I was new in the city, just arriving there from the country. And moreover, I was young and inexperienced. I wanted to be outgoing and friendly, but I knew from hard experience that there are people in every place who like to take advantage of others.
b) This is okay. Used for example in the following:
I was new in the city, just arriving there from the country. And moreover, I was young and inexperienced. I wanted to be outgoing and friendly, but I knew from hard experience that there are people in every place who like to take advantage of others.
b) This is okay. Used for example in the following:
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Thank you Anon. for your reply.
So, If I understand you correctly, the difference between a) and c) is that in a) my first-hand past experience allows me to state it as a fact, whereas in c) I am just taking the word of others on it, thus turning the verb into the past.
The difference between a) and b) is not so clear though. Perhaps there isn
So, If I understand you correctly, the difference between a) and c) is that in a) my first-hand past experience allows me to state it as a fact, whereas in c) I am just taking the word of others on it, thus turning the verb into the past.
The difference between a) and b) is not so clear though. Perhaps there isn
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Hi again,
I'm sorry for posting again on this, but I need a clarification on something; I hope you will help me.
I've been reading some of the older posts on backshifting, and the advice that was given in them was that backshifting is always correct, but never required; unless the sentence began with knew and thought, when backshifting is strongly recommend
I'm sorry for posting again on this, but I need a clarification on something; I hope you will help me.
I've been reading some of the older posts on backshifting, and the advice that was given in them was that backshifting is always correct, but never required; unless the sentence began with knew and thought, when backshifting is strongly recommend
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Henry74I knew that the sky is blueIt sounds completely wrong to my ear. If you are talking about a general fact, it's hard to see how you "knew" it! Did you suddenly forget when you started to say the sentence? If it's a general fact, and you believe that it's a general fact, then it seems to me that you "know" it, not "knew" it.
1 I know that the
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Thank you for your reply CJ.
Yes, I know is the obvious choice in most circumstances. Suppose, though, that I create a scenario where starting with knew would make sense. For example, I'm writing a sci-fi novel, my character comes back to Earth after years on another planet. When he touches ground and looks up in the sky he could be saying (correct me if I'm wr
Yes, I know is the obvious choice in most circumstances. Suppose, though, that I create a scenario where starting with knew would make sense. For example, I'm writing a sci-fi novel, my character comes back to Earth after years on another planet. When he touches ground and looks up in the sky he could be saying (correct me if I'm wr
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Henry74I knew that the sky [be] blue, I just didn't remember how beautiful it [be].I would put "was" in both places where you have [be].
I can't think of any case where "I knew" followed by the present tense sounds right to my ear.
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Thank you, that makes sense. I would backshift both [be] in Italian too.
I think I was just confused by the answer I was given to my original sentences yesterday, where non-backshifting was accepted in a certain scenario . But that's another story.
H.
I think I was just confused by the answer I was given to my original sentences yesterday, where non-backshifting was accepted in a certain scenario . But that's another story.
H.
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I tried using the sentence, "I knew that the sky is blue.", in some kind of context, and I could not do it. And if a sentence can't be used in some context, then it is not a real sentence. So, "I knew that the sky is blue.", is not right, although structurally it seems to resemble those other three sentences you listed (a, b, and c) - but these can be used in some kind of context, and so they ar
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It's not unusual for opinions to vary. There are English speakers all over the world, and there are bound to be different ways of saying things in different regions. That's the advantage of the forum format. You can gather all points of view and decide for yourself what seems best for you.
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