Advanced Grammar in Use

Question

I am studying with Advanced Grammar in Use now and have faced some grammar points that I can't understand and never seen and heard of it before.

Please help me out.

1. must have to

ex) I can't start the computer ,You must have to know a password

ex) John wasn't at home when I went round .He must have had to go out unexpectedly.

2.will have p.p

ex) As you will have noticed, he's got new glasses (rather thean -------- would have noticed ~~~~~)

ex) Most people won't have seen last night's lunar eclipse .(rather than ---- wouldn't have been ~~~)

I asked two ESL teachers and got a different answers .One said "I had never seen this grammar in my life and the other was like " Yes . those are right grammar .you can use it.

I am confused .

Dimsumexpress · Accepted Answer

Hi,

Whoever wrote the question for # 1, he'd better to back to school to learn his grammar all over agian.

"Must" has about the same meaning as "have to".

I must go! It's getting late/

I hav eto go......

# 2- Future perfect tense is not commonly use because of its peculiar nature. If used incorrectly, as in the examples, it will sound and look horrible.

ex) As you will have noticed, he's got new glasses (rather thean -- would have noticed ~~) There is tense conflict in the context.

ex) Most people won't have seen last night's lunar eclipse .(rather than -- wouldn't have been ~~~)

2 problems: 1) wrong tense and you are right. 2) With the use of "would not have", there seems to be a causative or conditional clause missing from the sentence following "lunar eclipse".

i.e. I wouldn't have gone out with my friends last night had you called me earlier, The fact was, I did go out and you did not call. This is a past conditioanl context which is what you had. The second part is missing.

A final comment: you should stay away from the teacher who approved of the use of such grammar, and he should be banned from entering the classroom in my opinion.

Yankee · Answer

Anonymous1. must have to

ex) I can't start the computer ,You must have to know a password

ex) John wasn't at home when I went round .He must have had to go out unexpectedly.

It baffles me that an ESL teacher might claim never to have heard this sort of construction. To me, there is nothing terribly unusual about the way "must" has been used, and it is also perfectly OK to combine it with "have to".

Basically, "must" can be used in two different ways. One way is to show obligation or necessity. This is the usage that people generally learn first. However, this is not the way "must" has been used in your examples.

Another way "must" is used is to draw a conclusion. (The reason for your confusion probably lies in the fact that you're not familiar with this usage.) When "must" is used to draw a conclusion, the speaker knows, for example, that A and B are facts, and based on that information the speaker concludes that it is quite likely that C will therefore also be true. For example:

John has dark circles under his eyes and he has been yawning all afternoon. You might draw this conclusion:
"John must be tired."

And that is the way "must" is used in your examples. The difference is only that the structure is more complex in your examples.

I can't start the computer. You must have to know a password. =
It must be necessary for a person to know the password if that person wants to be able to start this computer. = Based on the fact that I cannot start the computer and the fact that I do not know the password, I draw the conclusion that you (i.e. people in general) need a password in order to start this computer.

John wasn't at home when I went round. He must have had to go out unexpectedly. =
I expected John to be at home, so I stopped by to visit. But he wasn't at home. Therefore, it must have been necessary for him to go out unexpectedly. = Based on the fact that I thought John would be home (but wasn't), I draw the conclusion that he had to go out unexpectedly.

This type of use of "must" is not at all unusual. It is used both in BE and in AmE.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=52646&dict=CALD
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/must (see definition 5)

Anonymous · Answer

I am not the anon. who posted this question.  But, Yankee, just wanted to thank you for the great explanation.  It certainly added to my understanding of English.

Anonymous · Answer

Anon.: The sentences in No. 2 are very good English.  (a) As you will have noticed = a very elegant way to say, "You have PROBABLY  noticed that ....(b) Most people won't have seen = Most people PROBABLY didn't see ....

Anonymous · Answer

The other posters have all given you great advice.  Here is something that may help you better understand "You must have to know a password."  The modal is "must." "Have to" is not REALLY a modal.  It is just a main verb + infinitive. So: You + MUST (modal) + have (main verb) + to know (infinitive) + a password (object).  Here's another example: They did the job very badly.  They MAY + have + to do + it + again. Thanks for your great question.  It made all of us think more deeply.

Dimsumexpress · Answer

For this sleepy head just waking up, it took me a few seconds to sort out who is who.....

Yankee has given the "must" usage a very detailed expanation and needed no further elaboration.

But I am struck in an odd way by the last post which was drawing a parallel between"They MAY + have + to do + it + again" and "you must have to...". Although "must" and "may" are both modals but their meanings and tone are nearly contrary to each other. Must ~~has a commanding implication, and a conclusive property. May~~ implies options or possibility.

In my opinion, if this parallellism is validated as true, then one may as well consider the use of "He should ought to be able to fix the computer..." grammatical.

CalifJim · Answer

In the two below you have the must of logic and the have to of necessity (or obligation).

Changing must to must have (in the second example) makes the logical conclusion apply in past time. The addition of have forces have to to change to had to. Thus the word have functions very differently in these two expressions:

must -- have to

must have -- had to

AnonymousYou must | have to know a password.

It must be the case that you have to know a password. ~ The only possible conclusion is that it is necessary for you to know a password.

AnonymousHe must have | had to go out unexpectedly.

It must have been the case that he had to go out unexpectedly. ~ The only possible conclusion is that it was necessary for him to go out unexpectedly.
______

In the two below you have the will have of high probability or confident conjecture.

AnonymousAs you will have noticed ...

As you most likely have noticed ... / As you have almost certainly noticed ... / As, of course, you have noticed ...

AnonymousMost people won't have seen ...

In all likelihood, most people have not seen ... / It can be naturally supposed that most people haven't seen ... / It's not likely that many people have seen ...

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

dimsumexpressdrawing a parallel between"They MAY + have + to do + it + again" and "you must have to...". Although "must" and "may" are both modals but their meanings and tone are nearly contrary to each other.

The poster was focusing on the similarity of the structure, not the similarity of meaning.

Thus, these have the same structure, but not the same meaning:

They MAY be crazy. (Maybe they're crazy.)

They MUST be crazy. (They are certainly crazy by my reckoning.)

Likewise:

You may have to flip this switch to get the machine started.
You must have to flip this switch to get the machine started.

(Maybe you have to flip the switch. / You certainly have to flip the switch as I see it.)

CJ

Anonymous · Answer

Thanks for the clear explanation. Now I totally understatand. I came to distrust my English teacher who said " I had never seen and heard that grammar in my whole life "

Actually, his first language is not English. How can a person who started learning English when he was 20 as a scond language become an ESL teacher ?

At my language school , about one third of teachers are immigrants from Cuba ,India, Iran and so forth .They learned English as a second language It doesn't make sense to me. All of them except two teachers have no accent .But, when I ask grammar or usage questions , they have no idea and said to me " let me aske other teachers or let me look it up in a dictionary " Hew !!!!. I curse my school."

Language school here is a fraud trying to taking money off of naive students . Just speaking English well doesn't make a teacher !!!! They should be out of the field and look for another job for students like me.

Anonymous · Answer

I must have the same book. I have the same problem, with the same examples. I have found no-one able to explain to me the use of MUST HAVE TO. I don’t understand it, and the explanations posted here are not right. I am going to try to explain why, so you can help us. It’s not just that I need to understand it. It’s becoming something personal. I’m curious.
As Yankee has already said, MUST have two different meanings:

1) MUST as a way to express formal rules, regulations, obligations, even arrangements:

Bookings MUST be done 15 days before the departure
Alcohol MUST be sold only to people over 18
You MUST report any incident to the General Manager
We MUST get together more often

2) But there’s another meaning. MUST can be used to draw conclusions based on our own experience or past, present or even future events:

She has one car for each day of the week. She MUST be rich
He got lost on his own house. It MUST be huge

This is actually basic English.

With respect to HAVE (GOT) TO, it can replaces MUST, especially when we want to express formal rules, regulations, obligations… I suppose it can be used to draw conclusions as well, but normally, it is used with the first meaning:

If you want to book a flight, you’VE GOT TO do it, at least, 15 days before the departure
If you have any problem, you will HAVE TO talk with the General Manager

‘till here, everything is ok. The problem comes with MUST HAVE (HAD) TO. CalifJim says that this is the way to draw a conclusion of something that happened in the past. But that’s not true. I agree with him that we can use HAVE with MUST in order to express a conclusion in the past. It would be something like a ‘perfect form’ or MUST. Actually, this doesn’t happen just with MUST. It is the same with other modal verbs:

She always gets an ‘A’ at Maths. She MUST study a lot
She got an ‘A’ at Maths. She MUST HAVE studied a lot
Smoking kills. You SHOULD give up smoking
He gave up smoking when he already had cancer. He SHOULD HAVE given up smoking before.

But here we are not talking about the ‘perfect form’ of MUST. We are talking about the combination of MUST and HAVE TO:

I can’t start the computer. You MUST HAVE TO know a password
John wasn’t at home when I went round. He MUST HAVE HAD TO go out unexpectedly (this would be the ‘perfect form’ of MUST HAVE TO)

I can’t appreciate the difference with:

I can’t start the computer. You MUST know a password
John wasn’t at home when I went round. He MUST HAVE gone out unexpectedly

What’s the meaning of MUST HAVE TO? If MUST and HAVE can replace each other in some cases, wouldn’t it be redundant the use of both at the same time? In the book it is said that we used MUST HAVE TO to say we conclude something based on what we know about a present situation and MUST HAVE HAD TO to conclude something about a past situation. This is, actually, the same explanation that the one for the use of MUST. All is used to draw conclusions.

HEEEEEELP!!!

PS.- I know this is a little bit stupid, because not using it at any time, the problem would be solved… The thing is that this is part of the exam. I have to make corrections on a text where MUST HAVE TO is used, but sometimes is right and sometimes is wrong, and I have no idea why. It seems to be very arbitrary. I will check the key to exercises to post more examples of when it is right and when not.

THANKS A LOT FOR READING THIS PAIN AND SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH. I’M SURE I’VE MADE A LOT OF MISTAKES.

Advanced Grammar in Use

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