About the usage of"would have" in novels

Question

I've gone through many threads and posts regarding "would have pp" and "would do" to learn that the structure has two different interpretations: one is to show something counterfactual in the past(as in unreal conditionals); the other is to show speculation about something would have happen in a future time in relative to a past time. Things seem to be, however, a little bit different when it comes to novels. You know in novels whole text is written in past tense. So I think when a "would have done/been" structures appears in a novel, it seems to me that it actually means "would do". And you need to use " would have had pp" to mean "would have pp". But in fact I have never found a "would have had pp" in any novel I read. Why?Another nagging question which often confuses me is how do we distinguish the subjunctive mood from speculation when it comes to "would have pp", especially when there isn't any if-clause accompany it?Here I list some quotations from novels which contains "would have pp"1."Of course not," Kohler interrupted. "The union would have nullified the church's claim as the sole vessel through which man could understand God. 2.Two weeks ago, he would have considered the task awaiting him at the far end of this tunnel impossible. A suicide mission. Walking naked into alion's lair. But Janus had changed the definition of impossible.3.It looked nothing like the administrative security offices Langdon would have imagined.4.Peggotty had a basket of refreshments on her knee, which would have lasted us out handsomely, if we had been going to London by the same conveyance.On and onPlease help me with my problems and shed some light on the usage of "would have pp", would you?Thank you in advance.

CalifJim · Accepted Answer

Can you reformat this so it's readable? How about some blank lines between different topics? And list your sentences with each at the beginning of a new line.

1. ....
2. ...
3. ...

Unfortunately, very few people will read your post because of the cramped format.

CJ

Anonymous · Answer

Sorry. But I have formated it. I wouldn't have thought it would become this after posting.

I've gone through many threads and posts regarding "would have pp" and "would do" to learn that the structure has two different interpretations: one is to show something counterfactual in the past(as in unreal conditionals); the other is to show speculation about something would have happen in a future time in relative to a past time. Things seem to be, however, a little bit different when it comes to novels. You know in novels whole text is written in past tense. So I think when a "would have done/been" structures appears in a novel, it seems to me that it actually means "would do". And you need to use " would have had pp" to mean "would have pp". But in fact I have never found a "would have had pp" in any novel I read. Why?

Another nagging question which often confuses me is how do we distinguish the subjunctive mood from speculation when it comes to "would have pp", especially when there isn't any if-clause accompany it?

Here I list some quotations from novels which contains "would have pp"
1."Of course not," Kohler interrupted. "The union would have nullified the church's claim as the sole vessel through which man could understand ***.

2.Two weeks ago, he would have considered the task awaiting him at the far end of this tunnel impossible. A suicide mission. Walking naked into alion's lair. But Janus had changed the definition of impossible.

3.It looked nothing like the administrative security offices Langdon would have imagined.

4.The carrier had a way of keeping his head down, like his horse, and of drooping sleepily forward as he drove, with one of his arms on each of his knees. I say 'drove', but it struck me that the cart would have gone to Yarmouth quite as well without him, for the horse did all that;
On and on

Please help me with my problems and shed some light on the usage of "would have pp", would you?
Thank you in advance.

Anonymous · Answer

Anonymous1."Of course not," Kohler interrupted. "The union would have nullified the church's claim as the sole vessel through which man could understand ***.

I understand the above like this:

If the elders/bishops/clergy had claimed that the church was the sole vessel through which man could understand ***, then the union (the faithful?) would have nullified it (that claim).

PS: I agree with CJ. Your original post is a sort of dense mass of comments and questions so it's got a bit foggy for me to grasp with it.

CalifJim · Answer

AnonymousI wouldn't have thought it would become this after posting.

I suppose it depends on how it gets copied from your software system into the edit box.

Anonymousa little bit different when it comes to novels.

It surprises me to hear this. Except for novels written quite a long time ago, there shouldn't be much difference.

AnonymousSo I think when a "would have done/been" structures appears in a novel, it seems to me that it actually means "would do". And you need to use " would have had pp" to mean "would have pp". But in fact I have never found a "would have had pp" in any novel I read.

I am unaware of this. There is no tense in English with the pattern "would have had pp", so it's understandable that you haven't found it.

Anonymoushow do we distinguish the subjunctive mood from speculation when it comes to "would have pp", especially when there isn't any if-clause accompany it?

There are no subjunctive forms that include "would", so the terminology is wrong, but I do understand the problem. This is a frequent question here on the forum. Unfortunately for the learner, we use "would" in several ways, each of them a problem in itself.

Anonymoussome quotations from novels

They are all uses of "conditional-would". The if-clauses are missing, but they can be inferred from the context. These implicit ifs can be vague or vacuous, but they are there. Sometimes there are other phrases in the sentences that serve the same purpose as an if-clause. I'll try to interpret them below, highlighting the clues that show the implicit ifs.

1. The union would have nullified the church's claim [ if the union had taken place (but it didn't) ] (I'm assuming without context here that "union" refers to some process of uniting, and that it didn't take place.)

2.Two weeks ago, he would have considered the task awaiting ~ [ If this had happened two weeks ago (but it didn't) ], he would have considered ...

3.It looked nothing like the administrative security offices Langdon would have imagined [ if Langdon had ever bothered to imagine them (but he didn't) ].

4. ... the cart would have gone to Yarmouth quite as well without him ~ would have gone there [ if the carrier had not been there to drive the cart (but he was there)]

CJ

Anonymous · Answer

Thank you for your detailed explanation. But I am somehow mystified by your explanation. A few new questions arise as follows1: Are these quoted sentences subjunctive and therefore counterfactual? Or if they are merely speculations(without if-clause)? Or only the if-clauses are subjunctive while the "would have pp" is not subjunctive but only serves as an just imagination of possibilities(speculation) of some event in the past??2. Is there an if-clause(unreal conditional) always lurk behind a "would have pp" pattern when if-clause is "invisible"??3. Is "would have pp" pattern never subjunctive and therefore never counterfactual??  If that is the case, how to explain the following sentence, or something like that:" If I hadn't injured my left leg, I would have gone to school."(in fact he didn't go to school)4. Now I know "would have had pp" wouldn't appear in any novel(though it can be seen in some movies or TV series like Big Bang Theory). Then "would have pp" appeared in a novel just serves as a speculation about something in the future in relative to a time in the past while "would do" in a novel just mean a speculation about somthing will happen in the future in relative to a present time. Is understanding right? I mean the usage of "would do""would have pp" pattern in novels is just the same as the way we say them in daily life? Right??Sorry for bothering you with so many questions. But I am eager to know the answers!Thank you again.

Fivejedjon · Answer

I have edited the format of your post for you. If have also made you double question marks singles. If your software mangles yoru post when you submit it, you can edit it yourself.

Thank you for your detailed explanation. But I am somehow mystified by your explanation. A few new questions arise as follows

1: Are these quoted sentences subjunctive and therefore counterfactual? Or if they are merely speculations(without if-clause)? Or only the if-clauses are subjunctive while the "would have pp" is not subjunctive but only serves as an just imagination of possibilities(speculation) of some event in the past?

2. Is there an if-clause(unreal conditional) always lurk behind a "would have pp" pattern when if-clause is "invisible"?

3. Is "would have pp" pattern never subjunctive and therefore never counterfactual? If that is the case, how to explain the following sentence, or something like that:" If I hadn't injured my left leg, I would have gone to school."(in fact he didn't go to school)

4. Now I know "would have had pp" wouldn't appear in any novel(though it can be seen in some movies or TV series like Big Bang Theory). Then "would have pp" appeared in a novel just serves as a speculation about something in the future in relative to a time in the past while "would do" in a novel just mean a speculation about somthing will happen in the future in relative to a present time. Is understanding right? I mean the usage of "would do""would have pp" pattern in novels is just the same as the way we say them in daily life? Right?

Sorry for bothering you with so many questions. But I am eager to know the answers! Thank you again.

You are far more likely to receive considered responses if you restruct yourself to one or two questions at a time. Threads in which different people deal with different questions can become hopelessly confused,

CalifJim · Answer

fivejedjonAre these quoted sentences subjunctive

A sentence can't be subjunctive. The if-clause of a conditional sentence can be subjunctive, and that's what you have in the four sentences we have been talking about. No verb tense with "would" is a subjunctive tense.

fivejedjoncounterfactual?

Yes. All four of those sentences are implicitly counterfactual.

fivejedjonspeculations(without if-clause)?

There isn't much difference. You may think of them as speculations if you wish. It doesn't change the grammar.

fivejedjonOr only the if-clauses are subjunctive while the "would have pp" is not subjunctive but only serves as an just imagination of possibilities(speculation) of some event in the past?

Yes. This is what I have been trying to tell you.

fivejedjon2. Is there an if-clause(unreal conditional) always lurk behind a "would have pp" pattern when if-clause is "invisible"?

Frequently, but not always. Sometimes people use "would have pp" when they are quite sure because of information they know but which is not mentioned in the same sentence. "Why isn't Greg here yet?" "He would have gone to get gas first. Just wait a while longer." (The speaker may have spoken to Greg earlier and learned that he was low on gas.)
I'm guessing that this situation is less likely to come up in a novel, however, which seems to be your main focus.

fivejedjon3. Is "would have pp" pattern never subjunctive and therefore never counterfactual? If that is the case, how to explain the following sentence, or something like that:" If I hadn't injured my left leg, I would have gone to school."(in fact he didn't go to school)

I think I have explained all of this above. The patterns you're asking about are called "Third Conditionals", and their structure is as follows:

IF {clause with subjunctive tense}, (then) { (non-subjunctive) would-have-clause } [ = Third Conditional]

There is no difference between the subjunctive tense in a third conditional and the past perfect tense, so there is no advantage in calling it a subjunctive tense at all.

The if-clause is counterfactual and the would-have-clause is more accurately described as non-factual because it is the imagined result of what is counterfactual in the if-clause.

fivejedjonNow I know "would have had pp" wouldn't appear in any novel(though it can be seen in some movies or TV series like Big Bang Theory).

A quotation of a sentence from Big Bang would be helpful here.

fivejedjonI mean the usage of "would do""would have pp" pattern in novels is just the same as the way we say them in daily life? Right?

That is correct.

I used fivejedjon's reformatted version so his name is seen in the quotes rather than yours. Please reformat as necessary.

CJ

Zuotengdazuo · Answer

Hi,I am the one who asked the question in the first place. Thank you so much again for your anwers! Now I understand the most part of the pattern. But I can't say I get you thoroughly.

Now I know "would have pp" pattern is non-factual. So does that mean when we hear someone says "he/she would have done sth", we don't know if it is a fact or not? Then again, about the example I gave, "(If I hadn't injured my left leg,) I would have gone to school." , in this sentence, we don't know whether or not he went to school in fact. Is my understanding right?

PS:Here is a quotation from Big Bang:

Sheldon: That means 2015 Biff could also never had have had brought the almanac to 1955 Biff.

In this case, Sheldon used "could" instead of "would". The sentence doesn't make much sense to me but it suggests this kind of pattern does exist.

CalifJim · Answer

zuotengdazuoThat means 2015 Biff could also never had have had brought the almanac to 1955 Biff.

It doesn't make sense to me either. That's because it's wrong. There may be a typo in the transcript you're reading.

zuotengdazuoit suggests this kind of pattern does exist.

Only in the sense that any group of printed words "exists", even if they're nonsense.

zuotengdazuoNow I know "would have pp" pattern is non-factual. So does that mean when we hear someone says "he/she would have done sth", we don't know if it is a fact or not?

It's worse than that! Not only do we not know if it's a fact, we can't know if it's a fact. I think you used the word "speculation" earlier, and that is closer to the idea we're discussing here. If I speculate that I will win a million dollars in a lottery, I'm not working in the real world. I'm in the world of my imagination. What I imagine is not true and what I imagine is not false.

That's because my imaginings are like feelings. If I have a pain in my back, is the pain true? No. Is the pain false? No. Pain is not a fact. My claim that I have a pain may be true or false, but not the pain itself. Likewise, a thought in my mind in which I see myself winning a lottery is outside the world of facts. I have a thought and the thought is neither true nor false. It's just something I imagine. Therefore it can't be factual.

zuotengdazuo(If I hadn't injured my left leg,) I would have gone to school.

In the pattern of the third conditional, the if-clause is counterfactual. That is, everything in the clause (excluding the if) states a falsehood. I hadn't injured my leg is taken as I didn't injure my leg and as such it is a false statement. It is not a fact. It is contrary to the facts. It is counterfactual.

The would-have-clause states a firm belief about the result in the case where the counterfactual is actually true, factual. A firm belief. A speculation about a situation that did not happen. Like my thoughts about winning a lottery, this belief exists in a world in which facts are different from what they are in the real world. I'd call that non-factual rather than counterfactual. The speaker has a firm belief that he would have gone to school if the facts had been different, but this doesn't amount to the same as saying "I went to school", which is factual, in the sense that we can find out if it's true or false.

Here's another way to look at these third conditionals. The first sentence in each pair below is a claim about the real world. Either it's true or it's false. We can find out if it's true or false. The second sentence in each pair is a speculation (would have) in a world in which the situation in the if-clause is contrary to the facts, i.e., did not happen. Speculations (or "imaginings", as I call them) cannot be proven true or false, so it's not a matter of "don't know" but of "can't know".

1. I injured my leg, so I didn't go to school. ~ If I hadn't injured my leg, I would have gone to school.

2. Lucy had to drop the kids off at school, so she was late to work. ~
If Lucy hadn't had to drop the kids off at school, she wouldn't have been late to work.

3. Tom didn't practice enough, so he lost the tennis match. ~
If Tom had practiced enough, he would not have lost the tennis match.

Note that (1) there may have been other reasons besides the injured leg which might have prevented me from going to school. We can't know for a fact that "I would have gone to school".
Likewise, (2) there may have been other reasons besides dropping off the kids which might have caused Lucy to be late. We can't know for a fact that "Lucy would not have been late".
And finally, (3) there may have been other reasons besides not practicing enough which might have caused Tom to lose the match. We can't know for a fact that "Tom would not have lost the match".

CJ

Zuotengdazuo · Answer

Oh.***, it so detailed and lengthy! Thank you for your hard work! Now I can say I have grasped your point. "would have" is an imagination of the speaker so we can't tell it truth or falsity because we "can't know".
Here I want to clarify what I mean by "counter factual" in "would have".
Take your second listed pair of sentences for example:

2.Lucy had to drop the kids off at school, so she was late to work. (The speaker claim "she was late to work", though the fact maybe contrary to it, but let's just say it is a fact.)
If Lucy hadn't had to drop the kids off at school, she wouldn't have been late to work. ("wouldn't have been late to work" suggests a fact that "she was late to work". That's what I mean by saying "would have" is "counter factual"---it suggests otherwise. I didn't intend a speculation per se to be "counter factual". I know an imagination itself has nothing to do "counter factual".)

The same goes to the other two pairs of sentences.
(The following is my understanding)
So in this sense, "someone wouldn't have done A" can suggest a fact that "someone did do A", or "someone would have done B" can suggest a fact that "someone didn't do B".(this is what I mean by the so-called "counterfactual" )
Or in other scenarios, like the following quotation, "would have" doesn't suggest anything, it is merely a imagination:

This model gives you an idea of what Jerusalem would have looked like in the 6th Century.( Here "would have looked like" doesn't suggest "didn't look like". It just means what Jerusalem looks like is subject to people's imagination according to the model,right?)

I don't intend to persuade you or do anything like that. I just want to make sure my understanding of "would have" is right by elaborating on what I claimed.
Please let me know if I get it correctly. Thank you very much.

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