About "too...to..."

Question

eg1: She is a too clever women to stay in a so boring job. eg2: She is too clever a women to stay in such a boring job. Which one is correct and why?

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

If you rearrange the first, both will be fine:

eg1: She is a too clever women to stay in so boring a job.
eg2: She is too clever a women to stay in such a boring job.

Same meaning. 'Such a' (+ adj) + noun. 'So' + adj/adv + 'a' + noun.

Teacher Eric · Answer

Use the singular for "women".

Mister Micawber · Answer

Thanks, Eric-- it went right by me.

Komountain · Answer

In eg1, "a too clever woman" should be "too clever a woman," shouldn't it?

Mister Micawber · Answer

Maybe I should just go back to bed...

Paco2004 · Answer

Komountain

My E-J dictionary says that "too Adj a N" is more often used than "a too Adj N", but it says also that the latter type is sometimes used when the tone of phrase sounds better. I googled the frequencies and found the ratio ranges from 50:1 to 10:1 depending on the adjectives used.

By the way the dictionary says also we can't use this kind of construct when N is plural or uncountable.
(*) These are too tough questions to answer.
(*) It's too dirty water to drink.
These are all incorrect, according to the dictionary. I'm wondering why so. Do you know the reason?

paco

Komountain · Answer

Paco san,
Gon nichiwa.

I wish I could know the reason.

(*) These are too tough questions to answer. (yes, sounds awkward to me,
but I am tempted to ask. Why don't we doublecheck this with our mods by posting it as a new thread. I'll do the job, paco.)

But "many/much" is an exception, isn't it?

There are too many children to feed. (I don't see any problem here.)

Incidentally, here is my personal view on dictionaries. I trust them just 90%.
I write off 10% as 'bu--s-it.' They sometimes contain information useful
for only those who study old English. As far as I'm concerned, contemporary
English is more important. So, I personally think that the "a too adj N" pattern,
which I have never seen, is on the sidelines today.

Paco2004 · Answer

Komountain

Thank you for posting our question. I am waiting for answers from our teachers.

paco

Mister Micawber · Answer

Well, let me see if I can attack your concerns in a sort of slap-dash fashion. First, let me collect our sentences:

1: She is a too clever woman to stay in so boring a job.
1a: She is too clever a woman to stay in so boring a job.
2: She is too clever a woman to stay in such a boring job.
3: These are too tough questions to answer.
4: It's too dirty water to drink.
5: There are too many children to feed.

I'm going to ignore for a minute your and the dictionaries' comments, and just tell you I think that only 1a, 2 and 5 seem acceptable in written English, but that 1, 3, and 4, though they sound awkward to my ears, could well be heard in the spoken language. It is an unusual formation that lends itself to unplanned variations. (And of course we have the same situation with 'so boring a job' vs X 'a so boring job'.)

For the grammatical argument, Quirk et. al. have simply this to say:

'When an adjective phrase modified by 'too' in turn modifies a singular count noun, the phrase precedes the indefinite article. There is no plural or noncount equivalent for this construction. Instead, we have to postpone the adjective phrase.'

Hence, (1a) is correct, but (3) must read 'these are questions too tough to answer' and (4) 'it's water too dirty to drink'. I would think that part of the confusion arises from the additional use of 'too' as a synonym of 'very', as in 'that is too/very true' or (3) 'these are too/very tough questions to answer', as also it does from your exception in (5)-- 'two many children to feed', 'too little water to drink', etc.

With regard to your comment that 'dictionaries sometimes contain information useful
for only those who study old English', I am interested in whether you are speaking of the major English language dictionaries or of bilingual ones. The former do indeed contain a virtual history of a word's meanings, all of which are presumably still available for use, but many of which are indeed dated; this is often left for the native user to intuit, but a non-native user may not have the cultural grounding to do this.

On the other hand, in Japan at least, the popular bilingual dictionaries, because they must encompass two languages, usually contain only a portion of the meanings, and by the lazier editors these are skimmed from the top half of the original English source dictionaries-- which are also the historically oldest meanings, not necessarily the most current.

Paco2004 · Answer

Hello MrMicawber.

Thank you for the reply. That contains really useful new information. The construction of 'N too Adj to do' is what I have long wondered why people use. But now I got it. However, regarding to the original question about the reason why we cannot put 'too/so Adj' before plural or uncountable noun, I'm disappointed a bit to know even Quirk did not give a clear answer. You suggested people confuse the use of 'too' with that of 'very'. But we can put 'very Adj' before plural/uncountable noun. So I still cannot be absolved from the original question.

As to the dictionaries, I'm now using OED version 2, Webster's College Dictionary, American Heritage, Oxford Etymology, and the online dictionaries linked with One-Look. In addition I often use a bilingual dictionary 'Genius E-J' to know the usage of common words (I think this dictionary contains most of articles described in Quirk's CGEL). Nowadays we English learners can check word usage of current English by using Google, but a problem of this learning method is that not a few people are using grammatically dubious English in their online pages. This is the reason why I come here to ask questions.

paco.

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