Abnormal second conditional?

Question

Hi. I think I learned about this conditional pattern from a post that CalifJim responded. I can't remember the content of posts that was written or the name of the thread, but as far as I can remember, the point discussed that arose my interest was this:

I think what the point discussed was something like if you already have a sure idea of the action or result that will follow the tense in the if-clause could be in the present tense.

a crude example I can make out:

Ken would be happy if someone tells him he got an A on his test.

I think the point raised by CalifJim in one of the posts was If someone knew for sure that Ken would be happy if a certain action was taken, then the tense in the if-clause needed not be in the past.

Kooyeen · Accepted Answer

AnonymousKen would be happy if someone tells him he got an A on his test.

I think that's a mixed conditional, which maybe ESL teachers would consider wrong, but which is very common in practice.
The reason why mixed conditionals exist (especially in spoken English) is that sometimes people change their minds while speaking, changing from "doubtful mode" or "guessing mode" to "assertive mode", and vice versa. Taking your sentence as an example...

Ken would be happy if someone tells him he got an A on his test

...my impression is that nothing prevents anyone from telling Ken he got an A, and that would be a good thing too, it would probably make him happy, so the past tense to express a hypothetical suggestion doesn't seem good anymore to the speaker. The speaker switches to a present tense to make their suggestion sound stronger.

That's just my opinion though, you better wait for Jim... he's the expert.

Yankee · Answer

KooyeenThe reason why mixed conditionals exist (especially in spoken English)

I would be happier with that sentence if it had this wording:
"One of the reasons why mixed conditionals exist ..."

It isn't only a mid-sentence change of gears that will result in a mixed conditional.

Kooyeen · Answer

YankeeIt isn't only a mid-sentence change of gears that will result in a mixed conditional.

Ah.

And what are the other reasons? Maybe it's the usage of "would" that makes those structures seem like mixed conditionals, but they are actually not? Maybe "would" is overused as a "neutralizer", as a word to put wherever you want to make whatever you say seem less strong, and so mixed conditionals seem to come up everywhere. Could that be too? My English definitely seems to follow that trend if you look at my overused words: anyway, so, like, whatever, maybe, somehow, you know, etc.
So "Answer my question, now!" becomes "I wonder if anyone would be able to think of an answer to my question".

Ken would be happy if you tell him... Ken would... yeah, maybe, I guess he would, but don't blame me if he won't, you know.

Yankee · Answer

Hi Kooyeen

Personally, I think one of the reasons that mixed conditionals aren't discussed more often is that the context often must be explained in quite a bit of detail in order to understand the logic and/or to justify the usage.

The word "would" can appear in an IF-sentence simply as a polite form of the verb:

If you would like another cup of coffee, I will be happy to get you one. ("would like" = polite form)
If you would like another cup of coffee, I would be happy to get you one. (also possible )

Can you imagine a scenario that would justify this sentence? I can. Try it:

- If he called you from that number, then that means he arrived safely.

Kooyeen · Answer

YankeeCan you imagine a scenario that would justify this sentence? I can. Try it:

- If he called you from that number, then that means he arrived safely.

Yep, but I am not thinking of a conditional sentence. I am thinking of a context where that "if" would be used like "since", to acknowledge something.

Wait a second. You said he just called you from home, right? If he called you from that number, then that means he arrived home safely. So, what are you still worrying about?

Yeah, it seems a lot of English structures are dependent on context, so maybe it is not advisable to make up rules of thumb to explain complicated matters, like mixed conditional for example. Is this what you wanted to say?

Yankee · Answer

Hi Kooyeen

I think the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd conditionals are patterns that are used often enough that it's understandable that they've been given "official" names. But have you ever noticed that some grammar books don't even bother to mention the so-called "zero conditional"?
Personally, I don't think it hurts to learn the 1/2/3 conditional patterns. (CJ may disagree with me about that.) The problem is that many people then mistakenly believe that those are the only patterns that are "allowed" when the word IF appears in a sentence -- and that simply is not the case. Those patterns work fine very often, but they don't work for every single scenario that might possibly arise.

As regards the original question asked by Anon, that sentence does seem more like a mid-sentence gear-change (which you mentioned in your first post) than an intentionally planned construction to me -- though I suppose you might be able to conjure up a scenario that would justify it. I'd like to hear opinions from others (especially Jim) about that one in particular.

Kooyeen · Answer

YankeePersonally, I don't think it hurts to learn the 1/2/3 conditional patterns. (CJ may disagree with me about that.) The problem is that many people then mistakenly believe that those are the only patterns that are "allowed" when the word IF appears in a sentence -- and that simply is not the case.

Yeah, I see. That's what usually happens when you first learn from grammar books and rarely come into contact with real English: learners usually just take every suggestion as a rule that must be followed at all costs... I used to do so too.

But I think that's pretty normal for people who are not used to learning languages.

YankeeAs regards the original question asked by Anon, that sentence does seem more like a mid-sentence gear-change (which you mentioned in your first post)

Yep, as I said, that's my interpretation too.

Abnormal second conditional?

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