a muscular tall man

Question

Hi again,Can you please tell me if there is an order between Height and Build, or if both A tall muscular man and A muscular tall man are fine.Thank you.H.

JohnParis · Accepted Answer

If there is a rule about this, I am unaware of it.
I've also checked several style manuals and none mention which should come first.
That said, I would say "a tall, muscular man" simply because it fits my style.

AlpheccaStars · Answer

JohnParisThat said, I would say "a tall, muscular man" simply because it fits my style.

I agree.

Henry74 · Answer

Thank you both for your replies.
Absent a rule, that is also my preference.

H.

Fosse8 · Answer

Some adjective orders feel more natural than others - "big red ball", "short black hair", "horrible little man" - to such a strong degree that changing the order makes one sound like a non-native speaker.  It would be very strange to say something like "the red big ball", "she has black short hair", or "what a little horrible man".  But I don't think there's any rule about how to apply them, which is rather confusing.

Enoon · Answer

There is an instinctive prescribed order, and in this case "tall" comes before "muscular". ( You need a comma, by the way: a tall, muscular man.) There is a chart of the order of adjectives at this link < http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/adjectives.htm > with an explanation of where to put commas and other aspects of the problem. It looks pretty accurate to me.

CalifJim · Answer

Henry74if both A tall muscular man and A muscular tall man are fine.

The adjective that expresses the quality more closely associated with the noun comes closest to the noun.

I think most people would find the description 'muscular' more essential here, and the description 'tall' more accidental.

a tall, muscular man / a short, muscular man

CJ

Henry74 · Answer

Thank you all for your replies.

My book has a list of ordered categories to follow when you have multiple adjectives describing a noun. It goes like this:
Opinion - Size - Age (e.g. brand-new) - Shape - Color - Origin (e.g. Chinese) - Material ( = made of) - Noun.
The section on Size is a little poor on details though, that is why I asked about a possible ordering of Height - Build.
I've always found that order next to impossible to simply be learned by heart, and I think I have devised a sort of path that helps me put things into the right order. I don't know if it is correct, but it seems work for me: If needs be, I just think of a path that goes from Subjectivity to Objectivity.
Opinion and Material fall right into it. Color is generally less debatable than Shape, which in turn I find less debatable that Size. Unfortunately, Age and Origin seem to spoil the fun. Origin next to Material sort of makes sense, but I have no clue as to why Age should go between Size and Shape.
Perhaps you could fill me in on this.

Just a small addendum on "tall, muscular". I'm not sure I understand the notion of "being more closely associated with the noun". On the one hand, it looks like something the author should have a say in, depending on the message that he or she wants to convey. On the other hand, for some reason I cannot explain, I also find it more natural to say tall, muscular rather than muscular, tall. Perhaps the mental picture associated with muscular is simply stronger than that of tall. Perhaps contexts where muscular outweighs tall are much more likely to occur in real life than the opposite ones (I'm referring to context where both tall and muscular would be used to modify a noun).
I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud, trying to find a reason for muscular being perceived as more essential than tall.

Anyway, thank you again for all your comments.
H.

CalifJim · Answer

Henry74trying to find a reason for muscular being perceived as more essential than tall.

It's for the same reason that shape is more essential than size, whatever that is.

Height may be thought of as a subclass of size. Build may be thought of as a subclass of shape.

Maybe it's because muscularity or build is about the body itself. Muscularity is so 'close' to the person that it's actually inside the person, the muscles being under the skin. Tallness is a matter of how other people perceive or measure the person. Intuitively, height seems less an essential part of the body, at least to me. Actually, height isn't literally "a part of the body" at all. But maybe other people's intuitions aren't the same as mine.

(I think my analysis is something like your subjective-objective idea.)

I have seen a few examples (which unfortunately I cannot recall just now) where the order of adjectives was different from the order you quoted above, so it's not a formula set in stone even though it's a formula that is usually observed in practice.

CJ

Henry74 · Answer

CalifJimHeight may be thought of as a subclass of size. Build may be thought of as a subclass of shape.

Oh, I missed that connection. In my head I could only see triangles and shapes of chairs, but no, that makes perfect sense. I think you're right!
I also like your comment about muscular being part of the body. It actually gave me an idea: my path might also be thought of as one from Perception, or more precisely, from Relational to Physical. It seems to work, at least in cases when the noun is a person, or a body part.

Thank you for your very interesting observations.
H.

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