A comma necessary after a noun with a possessive?

Question

(1) This is a boy living in Ottawa. .... I guess this is OK.(2)(a) This is Tom living in Ottawa. ... In my understanding, in this case, when a proper noun is postmodified by a participle, you need a comma. So, this should be ... (2)(b) This is Tom, living in Ottawa.Then, how about the following?  Is it OK?(3)(a) This is my son living in Ottawa.Some non-native English teachers around me say that if the speaker has more than one son, and “my son“ in this sentence is one of them, this sentence is OK, without a comma, while if “my son“ is the speaker's only son, you need a comma, which means ...(3)(b) This is my son, living in Ottawa.The reason I'm posting this question is, no matter how many grammar books I have checked, none of them carry such example sentences as “one's NOUN + (without a comma) + participle clause“ex. He told me about his brother killed in a war. ... Without a comma, is this OK?Concerning this, what if the modification is by a relative pronoun?  For example,(4) This is a boy who lives in Ottawa.(5) This is Tom, who lives in Ottawa. (Again, I think you need a comma, when the antecedent is a proper noun.)The how about the following?(6)(a) This is my son who lives in Ottawa.Is this sentence OK if the speaker has more than one son and this “my son” is one of them?I assume this question corresponds to the case of (3)(a) and (3)(b), and again I cannot find any example sentence in any grammar book like (6)(a), that is, “one's NOUN + (without a comma) + a relative clause“ex. He told me about his brother who was killed in a war. ... Without a comma, is this OK?I would appreciate it if anyone would answer these.  Thank you.

Clive · Accepted Answer

Hi,
I suggest that it might be helpful if you consider that a comma in writing basically reflects a pause in speaking. If you forget about speaking, the use of commas can often seem like just a whole pile of arbitrary rules.

When in doubt about a comma, consider whether or not you would want to pause in speaking. Think about why or why not. I realize that this is not always easy for a non-native speaker to do, but it may give you a different and interesting perspective on commas.

eg This is my son, who likes hamburgers. The pause suggests to the listener that what follows the pause is not important to the main statement.It's just a little bit of extra information

eg This is my son who likes hamburgers. The absence of a pause suggests that what folllows the pause is important. It probably helps identify my son, thus suggesting to the listener that I have more than one son.

eg This is my son who is President of the United States. The absence of a pause suggests that what folllows the pause is important to the main statement. It does not necessarily mean that I have only one son. If I only had one son but he was President, I'd consider that very important and I wouldn't pause when I was telling somebody.

Here are some comments on your post.

This is a boy living in Ottawa. .. I guess this is OK. Yes.

(2)(a) This is Tom living in Ottawa. ... In my understanding, in this case, when a proper noun is postmodified by a participle, you need a comma. No, it's nothing to do with that.
You'd say 'This is Tom living in Ottawa' to differentiate from '. . . Tom living in Toronto'. The lack of a pause shows that the 'living in X' phrase is important.

So, this should be ...
(2)(b) This is Tom, living in Ottawa. See above.

Then, how about the following? Is it OK?
(3)(a) This is my son living in Ottawa. Same comment.

Some non-native English teachers around me say that if the speaker has more than one son, and “my son“ in this sentence is one of them, this sentence is OK, without a comma, while if “my son“ is the speaker's only son, you need a comma, which means ...
(3)(b) This is my son, living in Ottawa.
The pause after 'son' teells the listener that what follows is less important. This example can suggest that you only have one son. But not necessarily. You may have 10 sons, and still show me a opicture and say 'This is my son'. Then pause and add as an afterthought. 'living in Ottawa'. Think of it as a short way of saying, 'This person is my son. When the picture was taken, he was living in Ottawa'.

The reason I'm posting this question is, no matter how many grammar books I have checked, none of them carry such example sentences as
“one's NOUN + (without a comma) + participle clause“
ex. He told me about his brother killed in a war. ... Without a comma, is this OK? Yes. With a pause, the main idea would be he told me about his brother. Without a pause, the main idea is that he told me about his poor dead brother.

Concerning this, what if the modification is by a relative pronoun? For example,
(4) This is a boy who lives in Ottawa.
(5) This is Tom, who lives in Ottawa. (Again, I think you need a comma, when the antecedent is a proper noun.) No, all my remarks above still apply.

The how about the following?
(6)(a) This is my son who lives in Ottawa.
Is this sentence OK if the speaker has more than one son and this “my son” is one of them? Yes.
This is my son who lives in Ottawa. It's not my son who lives in Toronto. Because I don't pause after 'son', it shows that the information that follows is important, ie it identifies my son.

I assume this question corresponds to the case of (3)(a) and (3)(b), and again I cannot find any example sentence in any grammar book like (6)(a), that is,
“one's NOUN + (without a comma) + a relative clause“
ex. He told me about his brother who was killed in a war. ... Without a comma, is this OK? Yes.

I would appreciate it if anyone would answer these.

Post again if you still need help.

Clive

AlpheccaStars · Answer

Hi;

The comma rule that applies is the rule governing restrictive versus nonrestrictive phrases.

Basically, the rule states that a comma is used if the phrase provides additional non-essential information and a comma is not used if the phrase is essential to defining or identifying the antecedent.

This is a boy living in Tokyo. (No comma, because the phrase further defines the boy. The "living is Tokyo" restricts the identity of the boy.)
This is Tom, who is living in Tokyo. (Tom is already defined, and where he is living is just additional information.)

Anonymous · Answer

Thank you for your quick and detailed reply.
Reading your answer, I am reminded again that in the studying of language the sound and writing cannot be separated, though whether you should put a pause or not and where is another headache for us non-native speakers.
Anyway, your comments have helped me a lot, especially in correcting my misunderstanding about possessive + nouns . Thank you very very much.

Anonymous · Answer

Which one of these sentences is correct?

1- My sister, Mary's cat died.

Or 2- My sister's, Mary's cat died.

Clive · Answer

Say My sister Mary's cat died.

Clive

A comma necessary after a noun with a possessive?

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